EvidenceProf Blog

Editor: Colin Miller
Univ. of South Carolina School of Law

Monday, January 4, 2016

The Evidence That Jay Was Interviewed Before February 28th, 1999

According to the official timeline/narrative,

(1) On February 26, 1999, Jenn met the detectives at the police station. Upon questioning (at approximately 11:11 9:11 P.M.), Jenn denied any involvement in the death of Hae Min Lee but seemingly could not account for her actions between 1:00 (or noon or 12:30) and 4:30 P.M. on January 13, 1999:

Screen Shot 2016-01-04 at 6.01.22 AM

(2) On February 27, 1999, Detectives MacGillivary and Ritz interviewed Jenn at approximately 1:00 P.M. at her attorney's house. Thereafter, the detectives took Jenn to the police station and interviewed her from approximately 3:45-5:10 P.M. During this interview, Jenn recounted her version of the events of January 13, 1999 and said that Jay told her that Adnan killed Hae.

(3) On February 27, 1999 at around midnight, Detectives MacGillivary and Ritz picked up Jay from work and took him to the police station, where he signed an explanation of right form at 12:35 A.M. on February 28, 1999. During a pre-interview, Jay said that Jeff G. took him to Woodlawn High school between 2:40 and 3:00 P.M. on January 13th, where he met Stephanie in the parking lot. Then, in his official interview, which started at approximately 1:30 P.M., Jay "came clean" and told the detectives his version of the events of January 13th, including the trunk pop (at Edmondson Avenue) and the burial. The interview ended at 2:21 A.M., at which point Jay led the police to Hae's car.

We've already discussed all of this before on the podcast, but I wanted to create a single post that contains all three reasons to doubt this official timeline/narrative. Here they are:

(1) Jay's Intercept Interview: Here's a portion of the Q&A between Natasha Vargas-Cooper and Jay:

NVC: Why is this story different from what you originally told the police? Why has your story changed over time?

Jay: Well first of all, I wasn’t openly willing to cooperate with the police. It wasn’t until they made it clear they weren’t interested in my ‘procurement’ of pot that I began to open up any. And then I would only give them information pertaining to my interaction with someone or where I was. They had to chase me around before they could corner me to talk to me, and there came a point where I was just sick of talking to them. And they wouldn’t stop interviewing me or questioning me. I wasn’t fully cooperating, so if they said, ‘Well, we have on phone records that you talked to Jenn.’ I’d say, ‘Nope, I didn’t talk to Jenn.’ Until Jenn told me that she talked with the cops and that it was ok if I did too.

So, according to Jay himself, he not only talked to the police before Jenn taked to the police; he was "sick of talking to them" by the time that Jenn talked to the police, implying that there were multiple prior interrogations.

(2) Sis's Interview With the Private Investigator: Sis was Jay's supervisor at the adult video store. According to Sis,

Screen Shot 2016-01-04 at 6.26.16 AM


Screen Shot 2016-01-04 at 6.27.35 AM

So, according to Sis, the police interviewed Jay about Hae Min Lee on February 20th, 21st, or 22nd and then questioned him again on February 26th, which would be consistent with Jay's claim in his Intercept interview about being interrogated multiple times before Jenn was interrogated.

(3) Neighbor Boy's Interview With the Private Investigator: According to Neighbor Girl, Neighbor Boy told her that Adnan showed him Hae's body in the trunk of her Nissan Sentra on January 13, 1999. Neighbor Boy has consistently denied that this happened and told Bob Ruff that Jay gave him a version of events where Adnan confronted and killed Hae at work.* According to Neighbor Boy,

Screen Shot 2016-01-04 at 6.36.31 AM

So, according to Neighbor Boy, Jay was picked up by the police about a week after Hae's body was found on February 9th. This could have been a police interaction before the dates listed by Sis, or it could have been the interaction on February 20th, 21st, or 22nd described by Sis.** It likely could not have been Jay's "first" interview on February 28th, which was (1) 19 days after February 9th; and (2) conducted after Jay was (supposedly) picked up from work.

In conclusion, unless we can write off all three of these statements, Jay was interviewed (1) before February 28th; and (2) before Jenn. As usual, this leaves us with more questions than answers. Here are some of them:

(1) Why did the State hide these prior interviews?

(2) What did the detectives*** tell Jay about the crime prior to February 28th?

(3) What did Jay tell Jenn before her interview(s)?

(4) What does this tell us about the reliability of any of Jay's official interview statements?

(5) What does this tell us about Jay supposedly leading the police to Hae's car on February 28th? 


*Neighbor Boy's name appears in Jay's ride along notes from March 18th between Jay leaving the Pusateri residence and arriving at Jeff G's house before he had met up with Adnan. Neighbor Boy's house was indeed between these two locations.

**February 16th was a week after February 9th. The 20th, 21st, or 22nd could certainly qualify as "about a week" after February 9th.

***Cooper v. State might give us some insight.



| Permalink


Hm, do you think the fact that Sis does not say Jay had an interview on Feb 28th, when he did, suggests that she may have got her dates wrong? Or did the interview on the 28th simply not happen?

As for the Intercept interview: remember that Jay lies. Why is his Intercept interview, 16 years later, more credible than anything else he has ever said? He also says that Adnan murdered and buried Hae - is that also true? It seems to be an important part of the interview.

Jenn and Jay said that Jenn stopped speaking to Jay after she was interviewed by police - they had a falling out. Ditto Cathy and Jay. They also said that they didn't discuss what they had said in their statements. So, what Jay could be referring to is the fact that after Jenn's first interview, he had no idea what info she'd given them, and only when they subsequently reconciled was he willing to discuss Jenn's involvement. Just my thoughts.

As for Neighbor Boy: SK characterized him as a big blabbermouth who no one would entrust with secrets. Do we trust NB's credibility on facts and dates? Jay was arrested for public disorder in the ensuing weeks; he said he'd had various run-ins with police without being arrested. There's no proof that NB either really saw Jay with police, or that it was related to the murder investigation.

Ultimately, for this conspiracy to be true, one has to believe that 2 people who had neither malice towards Adnan, nor anything big to be blackmailed with, went along with the 'Adnan did it' theory, risking felony charges and time in jail, for no gain. The only motivation appears to be that they were so terrified of even being interviewed by police that they said 'Yeah whatever you want,' Jenn with a lawyer present. You should pursue Jenn's lawyer for misconduct, not CG.

Posted by: BonaFide | Jan 4, 2016 7:37:17 AM

BonaFide: There is no record of Jay working the midnight shift on 2/27-28. There are a few options here. One is that Sis confused 2/26 with 2/28. Another is that the narrative that the detectives got Jay from work on 2/28 is a lie. As with so much in this case…who knows?

The same goes for Jay. Who knows? He could have been lying or mistaken in 1999. He could have been lying or mistaken in 2014. This is why the additional statements by Sis (certainly with regard to 2/20, 2/21, or 2/22) and Neighbor Boy are important.

You mention the questions about Neighbor Boy’s reliability. And sure, there are questions. But Jay was not arrested at Jenn’s house in the incident you mention, and there’s no current version of the story where Jay was picked up at Jenn’s house on 2/27 or 2/28. I can’t really think of a good reason for Neighbor Boy to lie about seeing Jay in the police cruiser outside Jenn’s house. Is there one? Is there a reason he would be mistaken about this event occurring?

As for “conspiracy” theory, I basically see it as the carrot and/or the stick. Jay and/or Jenn might have been after the reward money, and we know that they were both threatened by the cops who thought that Adnan did it. The order could work either way. One or both points to Adnan for the reward money, and they both end up giving statements against Adnan when threatened with murder charges. Or Jay is brought in prior to 2/26, threatened with charges, and told that he'll get the reward if he points the finger at Adnan. Or neither is the tipster, and it’s just the threat of charges that causes them to point the finger at Adnan. We mentioned several cases where this has happened on the podcast, including the Harris case.

Again, all this requires is Detective Ritz showing Jay the police file prior to 2/26, with Jay thereafter talking to Jenn before she is interviewed. Then, to avoid charges and/or get the reward money, she and he implicate Adnan. Again, such conduct wouldn’t be anything out of the ordinary. We know from the Cooper case that this is what Ritz would often do during interrogations.

Posted by: Colin Miller | Jan 4, 2016 8:06:12 AM

There are calls from Jenn's house to Adnan's phone at 12:07, 12:41, 3:21, and 4:12 on the day of the murder. See above, Jenn has no alibi between about noon and 4:30 pm that day. It is disingenuous to say that Jenn had nothing to be blackmailed with.

Posted by: carnotbrown | Jan 4, 2016 8:29:44 AM

Smarchare: My main theory is that, (1) between 2:15 and 2:20 P.M., Hae said that she couldn’t give Adnan a ride because something came up and she had “something else” to do; (2) Hae left school before 2:40 P.M.; (3) Adnan saw Asia at the library and/or Debbie at the guidance counselor’s office until after Hae had left school; (4) Adnan went to track practice; (5) Jay picked Adnan up from track practice; (6) Adnan smoked a blunt; (7) they got food, they possibly went to Cathy’s place, and they drove around for a while so that Adnan could get rid of his high, with the cell phone being somewhere (outside Leakin Park) in the broad coverage range of L689B at 7:09 and 7:16 P.M. (or the phone was outside of the range of L689B, with the pings not being reliable for determining location); (8) Adnan dropped Jay off at the mall or his house soon after 8:00 P.M.; and (9) Adnan went to the Mosque, where he prepared his prayers with Bilal for the next night.

There are only two pieces of evidence that possibly contradict this version of events: (1) the 3:32 P.M. call to Nisha; and (2) Jay. As for the call to Nisha, she says it occurred when Adnan was visiting Jay at his shop, and Jay’s first day of work at ANY job in 1999 was on January 25th. Therefore, (1) is really part of (2) because it is only Jay’s version of The Nisha Call, which is incriminatory, and (1) Jay didn’t mention this call until his second interview, after being shown the call log; and (2) pretty much nobody believes Jay’s version of The Nisha Call (Forest Park golf course).

This takes us to Jay. Any other piece of evidence about the afterschool events of January 13th is only relevant as it relates to Jay’s various versions of events. The (un)broken windshield wiper lever is only relevant if we believe Jay’s story that Adnan told him Hae kicked it while he was strangling her. The lividity evidence is only relevant to contradict Jay’s claims about Hae being “pretzeled up” in the trunk for 4-5 hour and buried in the 7:00 P.M. hour. And so on and so forth.

Jenn is usually seen as the main corroboration for Jay because she allegedly talked to the cops first, even though they differ on pretty much every important detail, including (1) whether Jenn was home when Jay got there in the afternoon (or possibly home at all during the afternoon); (2) where Jay was dropped off by Adnan at night; (3) whether Jenn saw Adnan; (4) what Jenn and Jay did that night; and (5) when they disposed of Jay’s clothes/digging implements. If the entire story about Jenn talking to police first is a lie, that’s a pretty big deal.

As for Drama, I never said that Hae was trying out. As I noted, Hae was known to help out with Drama, not act in plays. The possibility I’m now exploring is that Hae went to Drama between 2:15 and 2:20 P.M. to tell the coach or a fellow student that she couldn’t help out that day. Or maybe she left a note because tryouts hadn’t started yet (practice was at 2:30 P.M.; we’re not sure about tryouts or when the Drama teacher arrived).

carnotbrown: Yes, and my theory is that everything started with the “Leakin Park pings,” which were followed by the calls to Jenn’s pager. It’s very easy to see the detectives (1) telling Jay, “We know you were burying the body with Adnan at 7, and you’re going down for murder unless you point the finger at Adnan;” and (2) telling Jenn, “We know that you were in contact with Jay and Adnan throughout the day and then met up with them right after they buried the body, and you’re going down for murder unless you point the finger at Adnan.”

Posted by: Colin Miller | Jan 4, 2016 8:51:18 AM

Do we know for sure that the ‘something else to do’ wasn’t picking up her cousin? Was this something she did every day, or just some days (e.g. every Friday)? Could it be that she was paged to collect the cousin on a non-regular day? Has it ever been said that the day she went missing was a normal day to collect her cousin?

Posted by: Cupcake | Jan 4, 2016 9:13:03 AM

Cupcake: I have new information on this from a reliable source, and I can safely say that the cousin pickup was not a surprising development that caused Hae to change her plans. I'm currently trying to see whether the source will go on the record. If not, I will cite to an unnamed source. In either event, the new information is very interesting.

Posted by: Colin Miller | Jan 4, 2016 9:18:11 AM

So, you are saying that the lead detective, Det. MacGilivray(sp.), perjured himself under oath, on the stand when testifying that the first time they questioned Jay was 2/27 when, after speaking with Jen at length on that same date, police picked Jay up at the porn store? I mean, that is what you are saying and that the police records, which substantiate this fact are all made up.

Posted by: Badger | Jan 4, 2016 9:26:36 AM

Badger: That is the official timeline/narrative I list in my post. I am saying that the detective’s testimony seemingly cannot be correct unless both Sis and Jay are lying and/or mistaken. I suppose that Neighbor Boy’s statement could be honest and accurate and not contradict the detective’s testimony if Jay were in the police cruiser for something completely unrelated to the death of Hae Min Lee.

Posted by: Colin Miller | Jan 4, 2016 9:37:01 AM

Right, I believe NB saw Jay the cruiser re something else, and not with the homicide detectives. In police interview notes Jay speaks about having been roughed up by cops only a day or two before. ( Its in the notes.)

Posted by: Badger | Jan 4, 2016 9:53:26 AM

Badger: Are you referring to Jay's trial testimony (page 148):


where he says the cops beat him up "in the last week" before January 13th? If so, that couldn't be what NB is referencing.

Posted by: Colin Miller | Jan 4, 2016 9:59:29 AM

No, I was referring to Jay's recorded police interview. I believe these are two different incidents.

Posted by: Badger | Jan 4, 2016 10:13:10 AM

Page 49?:


He's still talking about being beaten up before January 13th, right?

Posted by: Colin Miller | Jan 4, 2016 10:18:15 AM

Query : "at approximately 11:11 P.M". 2111 hours is 9.11 pm.

Posted by: Brewarrina | Jan 4, 2016 12:20:15 PM

The text I was referring to appears not to be time specific. He speaks in general about not trusting the cops and having been beaten up by them on numerous occasions.

End of page 50 - start of Page 51.

Posted by: Badger | Jan 4, 2016 12:20:30 PM

Colin your theory would be a police conspiracy / coercion on a massive scale. I just don't see any evidence of it in the police interviews.
What you are saying would involve:
Jay deciding to be accessory after the fact for doing nothing and potential 2-5 yrs in jail.
Jen potential accessory after the fact and potential jail time (even with her lawyer present).
Police feeding jay and Jen all information relating to the crime.
Jay telling other people that he was involved in the crime prior to the 28th (his boss josh, his friend Chris, neighbour boy, Jen, Tayyab).
Jay telling Stephanie before police interview to stay away from Adnan.
The police making up a feb 26th police memo in which they are still searching for Hae's car (because they know location and are making this up).
The anonymous call to the police (Asian sounding male) telling them to look into Adnan being made up?

Your theory is so far fetched Colin based on evidence we have.

Posted by: Ben | Jan 4, 2016 1:05:35 PM

I just re-listened to Serial and there are a couple things that Sarah mentioned that i didn't catch the first time. One is that Jay switched the location of the trunk pop back and forth from Edmondson Ave and Best Buy. They keep saying why Best Buy? and Jay had mentioned that it was because of the security cameras. The whole reason that Jay had, had Adnan's car was to buy his girlfriend a birthday present. If he knew the footage could have possibly surfaced of him at best buy they had to tie the story to there. I was about the same age as Jay and Adnan around 1999 and Best buy was definitely the place at the time to buy someone a gift. This is strange to me that no one ever ties those 2 events together.

The other thing that sticks out to me is the shovels. There was never any conversation about if they had buried her body why did they only partially bury her? 2 big guys, 1 being an athlete and very intelligent you would think that they would make it so she wouldn't be found. No one ever asks them why didn't completely bury her. Was there even a grave dug? This seems really important to the case that no one ever brought up. They never find the alleged shovels, neither of the boys are dirty, there arent any clothes that were ever found with dirt or blood on them. Why was none of this ever mentioned? If Jay was able to lead the cops to Hae's body then how does he explain where his clothes are with dirt on them? This makes absolutely no sense to me. He never explains when the boys went to get cleaned up.

We all know by now the answers to the questions i just asked.. because Adnan didn't do it. Its just simple questions like that, I cant believe were never addressed in court by his lawyers or the detectives.

Also... Sarah mentions in the 4 or 5th episode that Hae told Dana her best friend that she couldn't give her a ride because she had to go see Don and Owing Mills Mall. Its really brief but she does mention this.

I needed somewhere to bring this up as it struck me as something that wasn't/hasn't been talked about.

Posted by: Katie | Jan 4, 2016 1:12:49 PM

Ben: Again, I'd ask you to consider some of the cases we mentioned in our Charm City episode such as Harris:


I don't see much different in this case than what happened in many of those cases. Do you?

Katie: These are all great points and add to the doubt we have in this case.

Posted by: Colin Miller | Jan 4, 2016 1:32:24 PM

I meant Hae told Debbie not Dana, sorry for the error!

Posted by: Katie | Jan 4, 2016 1:36:17 PM

To Ben:
> Jay deciding to be accessory after the fact for doing nothing and potential 2-5 yrs in jail.
- OR, Jay being threatened with being charged for murder and maybe the death penalty
- OR, Jay trying to claim reward money and LATER getting WAY over his head.
Jay had no reason to believe when he started this that he'd become an accessory or face jail time.

> Jen potential accessory after the fact and potential jail time (even with her lawyer present).
- Jenn, WITH A LAWYER PRESENT, went to the police and implicated herself in a murder. There are two reasons she might do that. First, she could have been involved. If that were the case, pretty much any lawyer on earth would not advise doing what she did. Or, second, the alternative could have been worse. Like getting charged with murder or conspiracy to murder. As I said before, look at the phone logs. They had as much on Jenn as they did on Adnan at that point. She chose correctly, she was never charged with anything.

> Police feeding jay and Jen all information relating to the crime.
- Jay has an amazing knack of knowing ONLY 1) things the police already know, 2) things the police would know if they had seen Hae's car, or 3) things that legally establish a motive for Adnan, his state of mind (definitely sane), and things that portray him as an evil dude. And a really stunning inability to put all these things together into a coherent story that obeys the laws of space and time. Oh, and Jay and Jenn's accounts of what happened have massive inconsistencies.

> Jay telling other people that he was involved in the crime prior to the 28th (his boss josh, his friend Chris, neighbour boy, Jen, Tayyab).
- I don't know all the dates, but Colin presents a pretty good argument that Jay was indeed talking to the police prior to the 28th.

> Jay telling Stephanie before police interview to stay away from Adnan.
- Do you mean before Jay's police interview? I've looked over Stephanie's police interview notes (written in April) and her PI interview notes (from March), and they both say that Stephanie said that Jay told her to stay away from Adnan, but they don't say when. The PI notes also say she didn't believe him. Also, Stephanie changed her story between PI interviews in favor of Jay, and it's really not a stretch to believe that Jay's girlfriend might cover for him.

> The police making up a feb 26th police memo in which they are still searching for Hae's car (because they know location and are making this up).
- Yes, this would be pretty damning. I don't know why it's so hard to believe. Let's imagine for a minute that the police finally found the car after the NCIC request that was sent out on the 24th. Let's say they find it on the 25th or 26th. Then they talk to Jay. If Jay doesn't know where the car is, then what good is he? They'd have no case. But if Jay can lead them to the car, that proves he knows it was there, which proves he helped Adnan bury the body, which proves Adnan killed Hae. If they know where the car is, and Jay doesn't, then that is definitely a big decision for Ritz and MacGillivary. Jay is telling them everything they want to hear, but he can't lead them to the car. So...maybe they decide to help him out. After all, Adnan did it, right? They're just taking a shortcut to get their guy. No big deal. And one more memo right before Jay's interview would really help sell it.

> The anonymous call to the police (Asian sounding male) telling them to look into Adnan being made up?
- I think you mean "Asian male 18-21 years old" on the 12th. How did Massey know that? And why did Massey dodge Gutierrez's subpoena? Why didn't the police start searching lakes and waterways if the tip pointed to that? Why did they search the creek by the school back on the 6th? Undisclosed did a whole episode on this called "Crimestoppers" going into great detail as to how this tip is suspect. Oh, and the police had already visited Woodlawn with a questionnaire to give students regarding Adnan, pulled his records, and pulled his vehicle info between Feb. 1 and Feb 11.

And regarding the shovels, funny how they never asked Jay's family if any of their shovels were missing, and only decided (pretended) to look for them as an afterthought in April.

Posted by: carnotbrown | Jan 4, 2016 3:46:50 PM

All the people who are jumping from what Colin has described to call it "a massive police conspiracy" clearly have no personal experience interacting with law enforcement and the criminal justice system. That or they are skimming the article and not actually reading what is being suggested happened.

First off, you act like Jay and Jenn were 1st thing at the start given a compete rundown of exactly what would happen, what they would be expected to say, and what benefit (or lack thereof) they would receive for doing so. That they were briefed by the police on it, and then asked "Ok, so are you in??" ... THIS IS PATENTLY ABSURD. That is not how things go when law enforcement is trying to clear a case.

Police will use deceptive tactics not just on suspects, but on witnesses who could potentially help their case. Moreover, intimidation is also used with both suspects and potential witnesses.

If you walk into a police station hoping to score the reward money for a high profile crime, you don't know what you are in for. Maybe it goes exactly as you plan, maybe it doesn't. Suffice to say, once you are 15 minutes into a police interview that started with you saying "I have information on the big case you guys can't solve"--if after talking it over you don't like the way things are going, you don't get to say "Uhhmm... Yaknow what guys? Jk!! Totally was just kidding. I'm gonna go now, sorry to have wasted your time."

How so many people fail to understand what happens in police interrogations confounds me. Otherwise intelligent people have seemingly NO IDEA how our criminal justice system operates. You people calling what Colin suggests here "a massive conspiracy" just... I dunno, it's flabbergasting how clueless on this topic you must be.

Posted by: Paul | Jan 4, 2016 5:01:05 PM

So after writing that last comment, I've spent the last hour reflecting on the differences between the guilters (1/99 Truthers) and the innocents (Team Adnan).

I think a major difference between the two groups is the null hypothesis carried into their thought process.

Team Adnan: the null hypothesis used is that, starting from scratch with no evidence or reasoning, that there is no particular reason to conclude Adnan murdered Hae. They then take into consideration Jay, Jenn, and the sprinkling of other things that have been presented, and then decide if that is strong enough to overtake the null hypothesis.

1/99 Truthers: the null hypothesis is that Adnan did it. They then approach any particular article they find (like this one for example), and ask themselves "is what is presented here sound enough to overtake the null hypothesis?" For them the answer is always No, because of this and that etc they pick apart anything not 100% solid gold and conclude that their null hypothesis is more likely.

It's sorta like if Little Jimmy comes to class telling his teacher that Little Aaron's pet tyrannosaurus rex ate his homework because little Aaron commanded it to--and then the teacher concluding "Well, I don't know that Aaron actually commanded his t-Rex to do it, but clearly he is responsible for Jimmy's lost homework." (Facepalm).

Still, I'm happy to see this difference in approach. I'm more sympathetic now to those minority viewpoints who seem unable to conclude what is so forehead-smackingly obvious to everyone else in the room.

Posted by: Paul | Jan 4, 2016 6:54:07 PM

Any discussion about police misconduct is met with objection stating that it takes a massive conspiracy for these inconsistencies to be real. You guys really need some reality check. The US that I live in is choked on police/prosecutorial misconduct of gigantic proportions.

Posted by: Lagertha | Jan 4, 2016 8:12:51 PM

All you have to do is watch a police officer being filmed while he shoots or beats an unarmed person to death when they've done nothing wrong. What more do you need to know to see that the police feel invincible and that they can do what they want because they're always right? And, if they get it wrong now and then, it doesn't matter because clearly the perp did something else they don't know about yet, right?

Posted by: Eric Wolff | Jan 5, 2016 4:25:56 AM

Just started watching "Making a Murderer" For those who can't bring themselves to believe that a police dept/prosecutor's office could conspire to put away an innocent man who they feel in their "gut" must be guilty needs to watch it too. In fact, what the "system" apparently did to Adnan actually pales in comparison because he still would have beaten the rap if his legal defense had been competent in any way, shape, or form.

Posted by: Dan | Jan 5, 2016 6:15:42 AM

Minor quibble: "seeing Jay in the police cruiser outside Jenn’s house." The notes say "near" which is hardly specific and the PI doesn't seem to have asked Neighbor Boy for details. Near might mean in the interior of a neighborhood on the street you might take between Neighbor Boy's own home and Jenn's, but it might also mean he was driving his car on a major road that leads to their neighborhood and to him, that was "near."

If the police are speaking to Jay earlier than they say - which I happen to suspect - then that maybe more reason for Jay to be telling tales about the case without any real knowledge. (Which I don't think is the case.)

Posted by: boo | Jan 5, 2016 3:14:09 PM

Post a comment